Genuine RS or lookalike

[redhf]

Fake will do nicely just like the last works and rothmans escorts.

[Frosticles]

Some good answers coming.

[RS Stan]

A genuine fake for me

[alancdavis]

Never seen a RS 1100 or a Mexico GL

[RS Stan]

Never seen a RS 1100 or a Mexico GL

Try looking a bit harder Alan theres plenty of them out there

[alancdavis]

give that man a cigar ,,,

[MexInTheForest]

I'm not sure what 'genuine' means. Thinking about the Mk 1........

If I was to take a roof panel from an Escort that was built in Aveley and put it onto a rust free 1100 shell (to get rid of a sunroof), and beef up that shell with the Type 49 strengthening bits, and put in all the rest of the bits that an original Type 49 shell had, would that be a genuine RS shell?

How about if I had an RS that was built at Aveley, but it was rotten, and it was rebuilt with repro panels, all except for the roof, which happened to be rust free. Is that still 'genuine'?

Both shells are now authentic 'reproductions' of a type 49 shell, and are indistinguishable from each other.

So if neither are genuine, can any RS that has been repaired / repainted / used be classed as genuine? Where do they suddenly become 'genuine'? 0% replaced? 10%? 30%?...........

In addition, there are some restored cars that have been two-packed, powdercoated and clearcoated so that they resemble a 1:1 scale model of an RS, certainly nothing like the finish of the original cars. Are they genuine?

I reckon that a car has to be judged on how authentic the build / restoration is (in most cases) or how original the car is (very rare), and not necessarily if the bodyshell still has 20% / 40% / 80% of the content of a car that started of as an RS. History / provenance is everything with a car that is put forward as an 'original' or 'genuine', and that must play a large part in determining what the car really is.

If a rust heap RS is rebuilt into a solid shell that has been enhanced to the right specification, I certainly don't see any issue with calling it an authentic RS.

I get several emails a month through my Lotus Cortina website asking me if the car they're looking at or have just bought is 'real' or a 'fake', so I have to be diplomatic whilst showing them what 'authentic' looks like. I do think that it's terms like real, fake, clone, copy, original and genuine put the cars into a category that doesn't mean anything because nobody can define what each term means!
Mark

[RSGB]

Well said Mark,
but I think the problems starts when you come to buy one!

[alancdavis]

This subject is the most debated subject on the RSE forum ,,

[mk1gaz]

Wise words mark and 100% true .

[MexInTheForest]

but I think the problems starts when you come to buy one!

I think that is the main problem, as is usually the case when ££££s are involved. But I also think that there are a couple of things we, as the owners /enthusiasts, can do to sort that issue out.

The current situation is one of extreme mistrust of our cars in the classic car world. Mention Lotus Cortina, Mexico, RS2000 to virtually any 'knowledgeable' non-owner and they give a knowing smile and claim 'they're all fakes'. Mention Twincams, RS1600s, RS1800s and they get even more agitated! And never mention ex-works cars, or try and explain that re-shelling was a standard practise and Ford sold thousands of service shells.

Where did all that mistrust come from? US!! Look at any forum concerning the Cortinas and Escorts, and you'll see in-fighting and the negative use of the 're-shell', 'clone' etc. Maybe it's time we categorised cars a little more accurately, allowing more realistic valuations to be applied. Most importantly, incorporate re-shelling, with required upgrades, as a valid restoration approach. The Federation of British Historical Vehicle Clubs is campaigning to make this 'legal' again....i.e., that the original ID can be retained even if another shell is used. This ability was only made 'illegal' in the 90s to try and overcome the ringing of modern cars, and certainly wasn't intended to make re-shelling a classic, when you own both the original and the donor, illegal.

Perhaps we should also debate what the actual difference is between a restored RS where many panels have been changed, and a re-shelled RS, where a rot-free shell has been upgraded to the correct spec. I think it's this middle ground which causes the most issues.

Maybe the biggest and hardest issue is finding the cars that have been created from a log book and chassis plate, and categorising those. If they are done well enough of course, they will either be 'restored RS' or 're-shelled-RS', but most aren't done very well as it's an expensive process, and it's cheaper to buy one that's already done. And with the internet, it's usually only a matter of time before a car with a resurrected numberplate is spotted by the original owner from 1975 who wrapped it around a tree. Provenance is everything!

I'm sure there are quite a few of those used in all categories of rallying, just as there are with Lotus Cortinas that are used in racing. I don't see a problem with that.

On either end of the spectrum there are very easy categories. There is the 'largely original', like Mark Harper's Mexico, where the car still has its original paint, engine etc., with new service items. There may not be too many in this category!

Then there are 'hot' Escorts that don't pretend to be related to an RS.

There are reproductions that may look like an RS but don't have an RS identity.

Maybe there's another category for currently used rally cars. And certainly a category for ex-works cars, further subdivided as required!

If such categories can be defined and used, then cars can be authenticated by the clubs to fit into one of the categories. Cars can also be categorised by the seller in the sales description, and being properly defined, the buyer has some sort of comeback if it's been misrepresented.

All of this categorisation has to go along with an increased knowledge. Thanks to Dan Williamson and his amazing work on the MK 1 and Mk 2 Sporting Escorts, a great start has been made on improving the knowledge of our cars. He says himself that it's not perfect or complete, but it's a darned sight better than what existed before. And thanks to Graham, we have some of the best information written about any of the works rally cars of the era.

So that's my tuppence worth! We can sit back and do nothing whilst the rest of the classic car world thinks that all our cars are phoneys, or we can start to do something about it, which can surely only do our cars good in the long run. We all have a common enthusiasm which currently seems to just be divided by terminology.

Mark

[rikb80]

Amen.

[mk1gaz]

Praise the Lord . He has returned from the dead and goes by the name of Mark .
On the 8th day he sorted out the mess they call an escort RS .

[DRW]

Loads of excellent points made by Mark, as always.

Mark's playing devil's advocate, of course, but I don't think anyone would say an RS isn't genuine just because it's had some panels replaced. But every panel replaced? Hmm, maybe.

For me, it largely depends on the origin of the panels. Or, for that matter, the bodyshell. If it started life with an RS shell, an RS chassis plate and an RS logbook, it's still an RS if those bits remain. Even if, say, everything except the B-pillars are new.

But if that bodyshell has been thrown away in favour of a 1100L's, the car is an 1100L (not that there's anything wrong with an 1100L; I've got one myself, and I prefer it to my Mexico).

Yet what if those RS B-pillars have been surrounded by every other panel off that 1100L? Surely the RS has more of the 1100L's identity than its own?

So, what if the RS has had every panel replaced with brand new NOS parts? Those parts have never had their own identity. Does that make it a repro RS?

It's probably a bit simplistic (or maybe just emotive), but I take a Trigger's broom/Henry Ford's hammer approach. For me, if the parts have been replaced during the car's normal life, that shouldn't affect its identity - even if they're non-RS parts. But if they've all been blitzed at once, maybe that's a different matter. My heart says it's still the same car, but my head says... maybe not.

How about my own 1971 Mex (originally Tawny)? It was reshelled in '73-ish with a Type 49 Service body (in Copper) and subsequently modified for clubman rallying. In about 1990-ish it was completely stripped of all mechanicals and trim, then rebuilt by someone else using bits from a dead Mexico (Le Mans Green, I think). The only bit that left Aveley in 1971 was the chassis plate. But its soul is all RS - so, to me, that's exactly what it is.

Still not quite as much fun as a YB'd 1100L, mind you.

[mk1gaz]

lol , YB power Escorts are the real RS' theses days .