Real or Replica

[mk1gaz]

They drive fine provided you know what you're doing . Keeping the shell square on a jig is easy , i've seen escorts with all the bodywork chopped out that go onto win concours competitions . You'ld never know that the year before it was only a roof and "A" posts !!!

[Andyc]

These folk who reshell motors them pass them off for something else want a good kicking. they are just theivivg gits in my eyes

[alancdavis]

The evil one are the people who buy V%s and vin plates to fake a car

Having said all of this I have seen some very nice cars that admit to being a replica

[pushrod]

Why just stop at the shells.
Surely a front wing, maybe a new track rod end. No longer original is it?
No one rarely knows what is genuine anymore.
Better just buying a car that you like for money you can afford.
Buying an RS just for the sole purpose of owning an RS always seemed a bit arsey to me.

[MexInTheForest]

I think that it’s long overdue for us, the owners and enthusiasts, to get a general agreement on this stuff, as it causes so much bad feeling, falling out and tension due to the opposite views held. That’s amongst us who know about these car….the general classic car enthusiast views them with deep suspicion because of this old debate, and it really needs to be sorted before too much more damage is done.

This only started becoming a problem in the 80s, when bent and rusty sporty Escorts could be bought for nothing, and built into another 2 door 1100 shell that had only been to church on a Sunday, and also be bought for nothing. Result, big profit, but not a very original car.

In the 70s we used to do exactly the same thing, but only because it was the practical thing to do. The car with a ‘new’ shell could still be used to thrash about the woods and have a bit of fun on a weekend, and maybe have to be reshelled a couple of times. Profit certainly didn’t come into it, and usually, the car ended up being weighed in for scrap.

Nowadays it just isn’t economically viable to take a rusty Mexico and re-shell it TO AN AUTHENTIC STANDARD, and make a profit. The rustiest heap will cost a few thousand pounds, and a good shell likewise. Then the new shell has to be upgraded, have all the little Mex bits and pieces, bulkhead holes etc. put right, and painted the same colour as the logbook /AVO plate says.

If you can’t do that work yourself, you’re looking at somewhere between £8k and £20k to get that all done to a high standard. Then you have to restore all the mechanical and interior bits and pieces.

Do the same for a BDA car, and try and buy a good iron block engine for less than £10k.

Perhaps it’s time we started to value the cars based on the evidence in front of us, and that includes the car AND MOST IMPORTANTLY the provenance of the car. In order to do that, we need to know the details of what makes up a factory-original car, so that the real fakes / clones or poor reproduction cars can be easily identified and priced accordingly. This will of course also identify ‘original’ cars that have had a very poor restoration to a non-authentic standard, and that may not be such a bad thing as they also need to be priced accordingly.

And just as a thought, take a Mex that’s had a new floor, front wings, inner fronts, slam and front panel, inner and outer sills, rear wings and tubs and boot floor, with a few chassis rail replacement sections also let in. Is that any more ‘original’ than a rust-free 2 door 1100 shell that been enhanced with all the correct Type 49 panels and upgraded with all the requirements of the Mexico? At least the last one is close to 100% Ford product, made at a Ford factory, whilst the ‘original’ car maybe 70% or more reproduction panels.

Maybe we should get rid of the derogatory terms like fake and clone and rip-of, and just have ….an authentic car and a reproduction car.

As a couple of examples, an authentic car can be one of a few different groupings:

A factory original (maintained only, with no major replacement parts or paint…the one we all want!)

Light restoration (mechanical overhaul, paint, maybe a couple of panels)

Extensive restoration (considerable bodywork, nut and bolt restoration)

Extensive restoration, (original car built into authentically upgraded shell, nut and bolt restoration).

Don’t even worry about trying to categorise the reproduction cars. Some will be hideous rusty piles of crap that are maybe worth some of the value of their parts, and some will be stunning machines with an FVA that someone may pay £50k for….but they really can’t be categorised as far as I can see.

Provenance is very important when it comes to the high value cars, and a shinny perfect RS1800 or Twincam that has no old photos, no old MOTs or invoices, no restoration photographs, no previous owner testimonials, etc, must be viewed with some suspicion. A reproduction car built around an old logbook, even if it has been built to the most authentic standards, will be known somewhere by someone, and with the internet, it’s only a matter of time before someone pipes up…that’s my old Escort that I scrapped in 1982….I saw it being crushed! So provenance should have quite a large bearing on the value of a car.

So those are some thoughts on the subject, something I’ve gone through many times with Lotus Cortina folks, for all the same reasons. One thing’s for sure….. the ‘secrecy’ that has surrounded our cars, for fear of people finding out how to make an authentic copy, has done a lot of damage to the reputation of the cars. Enthusiasts outside the Escort / Cortina world view these cars with deep suspicion, with many thinking they are all ‘fakes’ and wouldn’t touch them with a bargepole. They’ve heard the term so many times, being put about by us, the guys who are enthusiasts for these cars.

I believe it’s the right time to define the authentic Sporting Escort properly and fully, and Dan Williamson has made a cracking start on that. Then come up with a non-provocative categorisation to put individual cars into, to help owners and potential owners gain confidence in what’s in front of them, and what it may be worth. Money still is the root of all evil!
Mark

[pushrod]

The evil one are the people who buy V%s and vin plates to fake a car

Or even worse, steal one to put the plates on!

[Aled]

Enjoyed reading your input there MexInTheForest

[alancdavis]

I agree,,,,very good post and direct to the point

[Groupcracer]

Enjoyed reading your input there MexInTheForest

Me too, but I also agree that an Rs Is more than type 49 strengthening plates.


This really is a can of worms then again the same arguments in exist in just about every marque. Think pre war bugatti or alfa 6c or 8c a ****ing nightmare at best. Its only the rarity that makes it a little easier but its still a nightmare.

[jimmer]

I'm sure skilled bodywork people could strip a rotten mexico etc and then cut off/copy/replace the extra RS bits during a resto and make it look right . I would say that 99% of restored RS's would have had this done to them seeing as they usually fell too bits after 10 years of road use .

Quite agree the German metal was crap unlike the British steel. Lucky to last 7 years. Build quality was also crap along with the standard brakes. The shite steel melted in the winter with all the salt. Thats why many owners with reshelled cars don't like being told if it didn't come out factory as an RS it will never be one. Even if you spend thousands! Thats where all the nonsense comes from!

[grum]

so, dont really mind which way it goes, but what would you lot classify mine as [one day ] an RS or a replica ?

ie. i have the original id. vin plates, logbook, shell, nosecone, bonnet and as you can see from the pics, not much else - all the parts i have got so far, loom, axle, gearbox, prop are all RS parts from RS cars ...................

doors and boot are genuine Ford, all the other metal for whats missing will be replacement panels, ie floor, boot area, chassis rails, engine bay etc etc ..........

interested to hear your views, go on, stick your head above the parapit

[thedman]

Alan, the next thing you will be wanting plastered all over the boards is how many spot welds certain components had and in which year they changed!!!

[graham John]

so, dont really mind which way it goes, but what would you lot classify mine as [one day ] an RS or a replica ?

ie. i have the original id. vin plates, logbook, shell, nosecone, bonnet and as you can see from the pics, not much else - all the parts i have got so far, loom, axle, gearbox, prop are all RS parts from RS cars ...................

doors and boot are genuine Ford, all the other metal for whats missing will be replacement panels, ie floor, boot area, chassis rails, engine bay etc etc ..........

interested to hear your views, go on, stick your head above the parapit

will yours have Stripes...............


cheeRS

[grum]

...............and before you all say it aint got a glove compartment, its T plate 79 base model

[graham John]

was this car ever used in a shoot out

looks like mr Kalashnikov has given the rear panel some attention, either that or 'Blind Barry' was the one putting the number plates on........



cheeRS