Group 2 or Group 4

[macjam]

Probably one for Kel to answer but what were the technical differences between them?

[Dave1800BDA]

Probably one for Kel to answer but what were the technical differences between them?

keith (kL) would be the person for this

[Mex 1t]

oh yes keith is very well up on this dept. m8

[KL]

It's all about which years.

As far as Escorts are concerned, Gp4 only really came into the equation after Gp2 changed significantly for 1978. Before that the works cars ran in Gp2 on all major (what became WRC) events.
Ford expected to have to live within the changed Gp2 regs for 78 and beyond and homologated a lot of bits for the RS2000 (Holbay head, ZF box etc.) in anticipation of the RS1800 being rendered less competitive. What actually happened was that exactly the same works Gp2 RS1800 was re-homologated as the "Escort RS" in Gp4.
FIA detailed regs for Gp 2 for sample years 1976 and 1981 are currently published on the FIA site and broadly represent the differences involved in that change.
One reason the RS1800 was made as 1840cc was that it was already known then that re-boring a 1601cc car (already an homologation fiddle, as the RS1600 was really 1598cc...) right up to the 2000cc class limit would later not be allowed in Gp2 and a maximum re-bore would apply.
"Works" Escort suspension would no longer be allowed in Gp2 and "standard configuration" would apply ie. tramp bars not 4/5/6 link.
The standard gearbox casing would be required in the revised Gp2 (so no ZF).
The official line is that Peter Ashcroft (was it John Griffiths by then actually handling homologation paperwork or was that later?) came up with a "cunning plan" that circumvented the Gp2 changes (that could have screwed the works cars) by getting the car re-homologated as a different car in Gp4 (minimum production then 400).
How did then FIA allow it for a car that never existed?
The bad blood betweeen works teams that was always around beneath the surface was then building between Ford and Fiat (in the 60s, there was at least one case of violence between Ford and BMC). It's just that between Ferrari and McLaren in F1 (then as now) it was more in the open.
The FIA had allowed homologation of the Stratos with 24valves, then rescinded it - and the 12 valve Stratos was no longer quicker than an Escort on non-practice forest events. The FIA then accepted the Fiat 131 Arbarth into Gp4. How many real ones with all the trick bits used were actually built for sale? So the FIA were not in a strong position to reject Ford's "tongue in cheek" homologation application for the mythical Escort RS into Gp4... any more than they were when Alan Wilkinson built the trick Gp4 Escorts for the 79 Monte. Fiat were in no position to complain. A quizzical Opel man appears in some period photos looking at the "new" Escorts....but who cared about them?
Gp4 had been previously used by the FIA in an attempt to reduce performance in sports car racing (Le Mans etc.) by putting a 3000cc capacity limit on Gp6 prototypes (no minimum production) but not Gp4 (20 minimum production at the time?). Porsche and then Ferrari drove a horse and cart through that - so Steve McQueen was to be found sitting in a 5 litre Gp4 917 in his film "Le Mans".
You may turn up entry lists for the lesser International rallies (Scottish etc.) that show Escorts in "Gp4" prior to 1978. That was actually a combined Gp4/5/6 prototype category. In all the biggest events they had to run Gp2 then.

It's all a question of which years.....

[macjam]

Cheers KL, what a mind of information.

[macjam]

So how would the Lotus Sunbeams be eligible for either Group 2 or 4 as on some events they would have been entered in either class.

[KL]

So how would the Lotus Sunbeams be eligible for either Group 2 or 4 as on some events they would have been entered in either class.

The Sunbeam Lotus was initially homologated in Gp4 in 1979 (in time for Pond to drive it on the RAC). This was a genuine new production car that actually existed, unlike the Escort saga. Once it had achieved the minimum 400 it could be homologated in Gp4 and go International rallying. Once 1000 had been made it was homologated into Gp2 also. Gp2 by then was quite restrictive but that did not impact on the Sunbeam Lotus the way it did on the Escort because the Sunbeam had the ZF box as standard, its engine didn't need re-boring to be competitive and it's standard rear suspension configuration was virtually what was used on the works cars.
Much the same happened with the original Escort TwinCam. It's first rally wins were only in events it could enter as a (1 off) Gp6 "prototype". Then enough were built to achieve homolgation in Gp3 as a "GT" car. Then 1000 were built and it was homolgated in Gp2 and could do all major events.

I'm not sure how many Sunbeam Lotuses were made (about 3500?). What Des O'Dell (comps manager) had really hoped for was that production could have been increased enough to convince the FIA that 5000 had been built. Then Gp1 homologation could have been achieved and the car would have been unbeatable in that category. What actually happened was that it was not selling, stocks were building up and the plug was pulled. Another factor was that the new Appendix J was coming in for 1982 (Gp N,A,B) and Gp1 was to be ditched (Gp2 and 4 were allowed to run on in parallel with the new Groups for 2 years to ensure adequate entries but Gp1 was not).
There's another story...
The full spec "Escort RS" was allowed into GpB (200 off) because it was already homologated as a (400 off) Gp4 car.
The full spec Sunbeam Lotus was allowed into GpB beacuse it was already homologated as a Gp4 car and a Gp2 car.
The full spec Gp4 Chevette HS was homolgated into GpB too - but the Gp4 HSR wasn't initially because it had gained the Getrag box and Atlas axle under "evolution" rules (only 40 off). When the Chevette HSR ran in GpB it had to revert to the HS's ZF box and Salisbury 4HA (originally Jaguar) axle.

[Mexicomark]

Much the same happened with the original Escort TwinCam. It's first rally wins were only in events it could enter as a (1 off) Gp6 "prototype". Then enough were built to achieve homolgation in Gp3 as a "GT" car. Then 1000 were built and it was homolgated in Gp2 and could do all major events.

Keith when did ford claim to have 1000 twinks built.? or should that be when did they start to compete in Gp2
Any Ideas.
What proof was needed to verify they had produced the required number of cars.?

[RS2000CUSTOM]

Keith when did ford claim to have 1000 twinks built.? or should that be when did they start to compete in Gp2
Any Ideas.
What proof was needed to verify they had produced the required number of cars.?

Nothing changes does it ??????

I have been told a version of the Uppy Downny RS500 story concerns a (alledged) homolgation fiddle by Ford as well - lol

btw:- Great info yet again from KL

[Dave1800BDA]

Keith, some great info there, good to read.
A question you may be able to answer if this is not right, the alledged 109 RS1800 road cars were part of the 400 needed for homlogation, then the RS1800 was pulled as Fords came up with the fact that the MK1 RS had the same floor pan, the governing bodies were convinced with this thus the 1800 was pulled as said.
The last 1800s also had steel cranks etc another way to get by certain regs i believe

[RS_Fiesta]

Deffinatly knows his stuff does KL

[KL]

Keith when did ford claim to have 1000 twinks built.? or should that be when did they start to compete in Gp2
Any Ideas.
What proof was needed to verify they had produced the required number of cars.?

The Austrian Alpine Rally 1968 was the first Gp2 entry. That was 2 weeks after the 68 Tulip Rally, where they ran in Gp3. The even earlier 68 Circuit of Ireland entry was in Gp6 (no bumpers in photos).
No. I didn't know that just off the top of my head! Someone asked recently elsewhere about Saab on the 68 Austrian Alpine and I looked it up. The above is actually in Robson's book "Boreham".

I guess the answer to the second question is "it depends who you were trying to impress". As late as the GpB era, a line up of all the required number of cars was not necessary at all times. There are stories of the FIA inspectors in an office and a stream of mechanics carrying RS200 body panels walking past the window..... then round the back and walking past again.
Officially in 60s and 70s there was an FIA requirement to establish that "provisions had been made" to build the required number. That usually meant needing to see some sort of production line and a pile of bits but not counting exactly.

[KL]

A question you may be able to answer if this is not right, the alledged 109 RS1800 road cars were part of the 400 needed for homlogation, then the RS1800 was pulled as Fords came up with the fact that the MK1 RS had the same floor pan, the governing bodies were convinced with this thus the 1800 was pulled as said.
The last 1800s also had steel cranks etc another way to get by certain regs i believe

You guys closer to the factory will know better than me whether it was originally intended to build more RS1800s (1000 would have been required then to be Gp2 and thus able to compete in the top events as a totally new car).
The alloy block had been homologated in Gp2 as "production evolution" (no minimum qty needed) in the RS1600. I think the alloy block was first rallied by Albert in LVX942J on the 72 (July?) national status Jim Clark Memorial Rally. I think the first International event requiring homologation for the block was 1972 1000 Lakes (August) - and the engine mounts pulled out of the block on Makinen's car and it finished (won?) with wood blocks holding the engine in. They then put steel inserts in the block for the mountings...
The RS1800 was certainly later homologated as "evolution" of the RS1600. For "evolution" an additional 10% of the original homologated qty was needed, thus 100 RS 1800s over and above the (at least) 1000 RS1600s for Gp2.
It was effectively just "revised bodywork"! Things like longer links were then slipped though too. Those evolution rules were never intended to allow such drastic changes. Things like going to the later bodyshell with larger headlights for the Avenger GT in Gp1 was the intended use.
How did Ford get a new body, less the floor pan? I guess you need to look for what else FIA had let through for the competition around then and were getting cold feet over, so were easier on Ford. One that comes to mind is 24 valve heads on the Stratos!

If the last production RS1800s had steel cranks, it would have been a way of anticipating a clamp down on homologated options, leading in to the revised more restricted Gp2 for 1978 (that was already know about years earlier). I don't have the papers for the RS1600/1800, but a steel crank was an homologated option in Gp2 from late 74 on the RS2000.

[Mex 1t]

keith well done a very intresting read, you make this a very informative place to hang out and i do love stories of a little twisting the rules makes me smile that everyone wasnt whiter than white

[2quick4u]

Well done KL, that was very interesting, I had someone ask me the same question about Gp4 and 2 the other day, my answer was a bit more vague to say the least
I will send them this way to get a proper explanation now